The only issue with the Grohl analogy (and the analogy is solid) is that it only focuses on cosmetics. People and watches are machines. I am sure if Grohl needed a new hip or a new heart or a melanoma removed from his face that required a skin graft, he wouldn't limp around or let it met to his lung. He would get the new hip and the mole removed and get the skin graft.
The issue isn't really that unpolished/all original isn't the pinnacle. It is and should be. Unpolished all original doesn't need defending. It is fine right where it is.
The issue is that the dealers are directing the market and the market is broken because there is not enough attention to function for normies which makes vintage more difficult.
Maybe the focus shouldn't be defending unpolished/all original. Again - pinnacle, doesnt need defending.
Maybe the focus is segmenting the word collector. It seems that collector doesnt encompass the current zeitgeist which is why you are getting questions. Collector really addresses two distinct groups:
1. Archivist/museum curator - unpolished all original is entirely appropriate and really the only acceptable option. Watches rarely worn outside or day to day. Uber collector. Uber rare pieces, etc.
2. Normie vintage lover. Function is as important as original cosmetics. Running around with rotting lume worrying that it might crack is more of an issue than reluming. Swapping out a crown for a NOS or (gasp) aftermarket to get water resistance and keeping the original in a baggie for safe keeping is more important than worrying about an errant splash or humidity. These vintage watches are meant to be worn rather than put in a safe. This group of watches is also likely not super rare or even all that interesting in most cases. Just old.
Another possible way to help the situation is something along the lines of segmenting the watches. This sounds dumb but:
1. Vintage artifact/art piece. Modification is crime against humanity.
2. Vintage day to day. Modification helps function and is accepted/valued.
Basically this discussion is a market and marketing issue rather than an issue related to the value of unpolished/all original. In these discussions the different vintage types are talking past one another, perhaps, because they are talking about different things. The normie collectors need a market that also serves them. Right now there isn't any.
you have an uncanny ability to put out well-reasoned responses quite quickly! I think I agree with your distinctions in broad strokes and your points made. I certainly identify as the "normie vintage lover" who buys watches to wear them, hence the bias of this post in trying to "sell" modern-focused folks on the appeal of original condition in vintage. I think you're also right in that the 2 markets often "talk past one another," with dealers preaching condition, at least at the high end, and normies hearing this and perhaps thinking it needs to apply to everything when really it doesn't need to apply to everything or even most things.
anyway, it's an interesting area especially when you start to think about the implications on estoration, etc., so surely more to come!
I'd look at it like cars - some are meant to be and are valued as originals, others are great for mods and making your own. And I agree that the models and markets probably don't overlap that much.
Excellent take on the vintage market/ethos Tony. I also like what Matt Wright wrote below but I think that, though "the big dealers are directing the market" as he says, they are only directing the top end. There are a lot of vintage market segments for people with all sorts of different budgets. I have some close to perfect watches in my collection but I have a lot of honest worn watches that I love and wear.
All of the segments of the vintage market are scary because among the dealers in all segments, there are some who are less than honest. There are some who try to lift their watches up the segment ladder by unscrupulous means...refinishing, adding fake parts etc, to make more money. They try to make honest but worn/used watches into something they are not. These are the vintage watches to avoid…the dishonest vintage.
All you have to do, in whatever market segment you belong to, is learn. You need to learn to spot the honest dealers, and you need to learn to spot the honest watches. I know this is an old saw, and I also know that this is harder than it sounds. One of my mentors, who is in his 80's now and has been collecting watches since he was 8 or 9 years old told me, "if you don't know, know who to ask."
The great, but less than perfect stuff is out there. I just got back from a watch trip to San Diego. I bought about 10 nice pieces from jewelers, watchmakers, coin shops and gold buyers driving up the coast from Del Mar to Ocean side one day and 3 great ‘60s and ‘70s chronographs at a little NAWCC show in La Mesa. Only one of them was even close to being a sock drawer queen but they were all honest watches. The goods are out there for anyone on almost any budget. ---Little Johnny
Great ✍️ as always. I'd add that for a true toolwatch, keeping its spirit alive can mean replacing its no longer functional parts so that it can continue to be used as originally intended. A bit like a hip replacement is different than a botox injection.
I really enjoyed this one! Agreed with the point of enjoying the flavor of originality vs perfection. Its the imperfections that make each watch unique! Thanks for the read T.
Great narrative about why many vintage collectors prefer the honesty of a piece that hasn’t made a trip to a spa ever or maybe just a few very sympathetic times. Eye pleasing patina from age and original dimensions can never be unwound back to original state the way many prefer.
Good one.
The only issue with the Grohl analogy (and the analogy is solid) is that it only focuses on cosmetics. People and watches are machines. I am sure if Grohl needed a new hip or a new heart or a melanoma removed from his face that required a skin graft, he wouldn't limp around or let it met to his lung. He would get the new hip and the mole removed and get the skin graft.
The issue isn't really that unpolished/all original isn't the pinnacle. It is and should be. Unpolished all original doesn't need defending. It is fine right where it is.
The issue is that the dealers are directing the market and the market is broken because there is not enough attention to function for normies which makes vintage more difficult.
Maybe the focus shouldn't be defending unpolished/all original. Again - pinnacle, doesnt need defending.
Maybe the focus is segmenting the word collector. It seems that collector doesnt encompass the current zeitgeist which is why you are getting questions. Collector really addresses two distinct groups:
1. Archivist/museum curator - unpolished all original is entirely appropriate and really the only acceptable option. Watches rarely worn outside or day to day. Uber collector. Uber rare pieces, etc.
2. Normie vintage lover. Function is as important as original cosmetics. Running around with rotting lume worrying that it might crack is more of an issue than reluming. Swapping out a crown for a NOS or (gasp) aftermarket to get water resistance and keeping the original in a baggie for safe keeping is more important than worrying about an errant splash or humidity. These vintage watches are meant to be worn rather than put in a safe. This group of watches is also likely not super rare or even all that interesting in most cases. Just old.
Another possible way to help the situation is something along the lines of segmenting the watches. This sounds dumb but:
1. Vintage artifact/art piece. Modification is crime against humanity.
2. Vintage day to day. Modification helps function and is accepted/valued.
Basically this discussion is a market and marketing issue rather than an issue related to the value of unpolished/all original. In these discussions the different vintage types are talking past one another, perhaps, because they are talking about different things. The normie collectors need a market that also serves them. Right now there isn't any.
No idea if that made any sense.
Anyway - good analogy. Good newsletter.
you have an uncanny ability to put out well-reasoned responses quite quickly! I think I agree with your distinctions in broad strokes and your points made. I certainly identify as the "normie vintage lover" who buys watches to wear them, hence the bias of this post in trying to "sell" modern-focused folks on the appeal of original condition in vintage. I think you're also right in that the 2 markets often "talk past one another," with dealers preaching condition, at least at the high end, and normies hearing this and perhaps thinking it needs to apply to everything when really it doesn't need to apply to everything or even most things.
anyway, it's an interesting area especially when you start to think about the implications on estoration, etc., so surely more to come!
I'd look at it like cars - some are meant to be and are valued as originals, others are great for mods and making your own. And I agree that the models and markets probably don't overlap that much.
Excellent, your distinction made perfect sense.
Love the breadth…Patek to Timex
every day to aspirational !
Excellent take on the vintage market/ethos Tony. I also like what Matt Wright wrote below but I think that, though "the big dealers are directing the market" as he says, they are only directing the top end. There are a lot of vintage market segments for people with all sorts of different budgets. I have some close to perfect watches in my collection but I have a lot of honest worn watches that I love and wear.
All of the segments of the vintage market are scary because among the dealers in all segments, there are some who are less than honest. There are some who try to lift their watches up the segment ladder by unscrupulous means...refinishing, adding fake parts etc, to make more money. They try to make honest but worn/used watches into something they are not. These are the vintage watches to avoid…the dishonest vintage.
All you have to do, in whatever market segment you belong to, is learn. You need to learn to spot the honest dealers, and you need to learn to spot the honest watches. I know this is an old saw, and I also know that this is harder than it sounds. One of my mentors, who is in his 80's now and has been collecting watches since he was 8 or 9 years old told me, "if you don't know, know who to ask."
The great, but less than perfect stuff is out there. I just got back from a watch trip to San Diego. I bought about 10 nice pieces from jewelers, watchmakers, coin shops and gold buyers driving up the coast from Del Mar to Ocean side one day and 3 great ‘60s and ‘70s chronographs at a little NAWCC show in La Mesa. Only one of them was even close to being a sock drawer queen but they were all honest watches. The goods are out there for anyone on almost any budget. ---Little Johnny
well said john. i've gotta say, when i get a comment from someone like you, i feel less than qualified to speak on the subject.
Also, I'd love to tag along on one of your watch-hunting journeys. We'll have to talk come national NAWCC this summer.
I need to do a Chicago and Wisconsin watch hunting trip some time soon. I can pick you up.
Wonderful article! Love when someone can eloquently explain something you feel but cannot put into words!
Thanks for reading Michael 🙏
Great ✍️ as always. I'd add that for a true toolwatch, keeping its spirit alive can mean replacing its no longer functional parts so that it can continue to be used as originally intended. A bit like a hip replacement is different than a botox injection.
your Sub needs a new hip! it's true but this does start to get into the subject of restoration which is quite the topic.
I really enjoyed this one! Agreed with the point of enjoying the flavor of originality vs perfection. Its the imperfections that make each watch unique! Thanks for the read T.
perfectly imperfect! thanks for reading
Great narrative about why many vintage collectors prefer the honesty of a piece that hasn’t made a trip to a spa ever or maybe just a few very sympathetic times. Eye pleasing patina from age and original dimensions can never be unwound back to original state the way many prefer.
it's all about being sympathetic to its history, well said.
What I’ll now see is the mirror each morning is the emergence of a fine vintage Patek, thank you Tony.
When I see you, I see a rockstar
Always a joy to receive Mr T!
thanks for reading garth 🙏
Excellent stuff Tony, and congratulations on still not mentioning "patina" 👏👏👏
someone keeping me honest!